Quotes about retreat page 3
Vasily Chuikov (1900–1982) Soviet military commander
...Our soldiers had only one idea. Stalin had ordered us not to retreat.
Quoted in "They Shall Not Sleep" - Page 318 - by Leland Stowe - 1944
Anthony Crosland (1918–1977) British politician
Speech in Manchester Town Hall (9 May 1975), quoted in Christopher Warman, 'Councils are told to curb rise in spending', The Times (10 May 1975), p. 1
Gerd von Rundstedt (1875–1953) German Field Marshal during World War II
November 30, 1941. Rundstedt sent this wire message that resulted in him being dismissed from office. Quoted in "The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich: A History of Nazi Germany" - Page 861 - by William Lawrence Shirer - Germany - 1990
Siad Barre (1919–1995) Head of State of Somalia
Mogadiscio Domestic Service in Somali http://www.biyokulule.com/1978_coup.htm, 0448 GMT (1 May 1978).
Peter F. Drucker (1909–2005) American business consultant
About the rise and fall of the blue-collar worker
1990s and later, "The Age of Social Transformation." 1994
Geoffrey Blainey (1930) Australian historian
The Story of Australia's People: The Rise and Rise of a New Australia (2016)
Dana Gioia (1950) American writer
28
Essays, Can Poetry Matter? (1991), The Catholic Writer Today (2013)
Louis Brandeis (1856–1941) American Supreme Court Justice
"The Right to Privacy," 4 Harvard L. Rev. 193, 196 (1890).
Extra-judicial writings
Jane Taylor (1783–1824) British poet
Hymn, reported in Bartlett's Familiar Quotations, 10th ed. (1919).
Leonid Brezhnev (1906–1982) General Secretary of the Communist Party of the Soviet Union
Statement made in World War II, as a commissar on the southern front, as quoted in Leonid I. Brezhnev : Pages from his Life (1978) by Academy of Sciences of the USSR, p. 49; also in For the Soul of Mankind : The United States, the Soviet Union, and the Cold War (2007) by Melvyn P. Leffler, p. 237
“Just as an enemy is more dangerous to a retreating army, so every trouble that fortune brings attacks us all the harder if we yield and turn our backs.”
Quemadmodum perniciosior est hostis fugientibus, sic omne fortuitum incommodum magis instat cedenti et averso.
Seneca the Younger (-4–65 BC) Roman Stoic philosopher, statesman, and dramatist
Epistulae Morales ad Lucilium (Moral Letters to Lucilius), Letter LXXXVIII: On liberal and vocational studies
Wang Chi-chen (1899–2001)
she asked. "Everything was going well a moment ago."
Emboldened by the presence of the newcomers, Chia Lien became more menacing. Phoenix, on the other hand, quieted herself and left the scene to seek the protection of the Matriarch. She threw herself sobbing into the Matriarch's arms and said, "Save me, Lao Tai-tai. Lien Er-yeh wants to kill me."
Source: Dream of the Red Chamber (1958), pp. 198–199
“As far as the Cluniacs and the Cistercians are concerned, what follows is a fair appraisal of the two orders. Give the Cluniacs today a tract of land covered with marvellous buildings, endow them with ample revenues and enrich the place with vast possessions: before you can turn round it will all be ruined and reduced to poverty. On the other hand, settle the Cistercians in some barren retreat which is hidden away in an overgrown forest: a year or two later you will find splendid churches there and fine monastic buildings, with a great amount of property and all the wealth you can imagine.”
De duobus tamen ordinibus istis, Cluniacensi scilicet et Cisterciensi, hoc compertum habeas. Locum aedificiis egregie constructum, redditibus amplis et possessionibus locupletatum, istis hodie tradas; inopem in brevi destructumque videbis. Illis e diverso eremum nudam, et hispidam silvam assignes: intra paucos postmodum annos, non solum ecclesias et aedes insignes, verum etiam possessionum copias, et opulentias multas ibidem invenies.
Gerald of Wales (1146) Medieval clergyman and historian
Book 1, chapter 3, pp. 105-6.
Itinerarium Cambriae (The Journey Through Wales) (1191)
Georg Wilhelm Friedrich Hegel book Lectures on the Philosophy of History
Geschichte Als Schlachtbank
Pt. III, sec. 2, ch. 24 Lectures on the History of History Vol 1 p. 22 John Sibree translation (1857), 1914
Lectures on the Philosophy of History (1832), Volume 1
Octavio Paz (1914–1998) Mexican writer laureated with the 1990 Nobel Prize for Literature
Sun Stone (1957)
Peter Greenaway (1942) British film director
From the eighth book, "The Book of the Seducer"
The Pillow Book
Barbara Kingsolver book Flight Behavior
Flight Behavior, page 576 (ISBN 978-0-571-29081-9).
Flight Behavior (2012)
Samuel Johnson book The History of Rasselas, Prince of Abissinia
Source: The History of Rasselas, Prince of Abissinia (1759), Chapter 28
Max Weber (1864–1920) German sociologist, philosopher, and political economist
"Science as a Vocation" (1917)
Vincent Van Gogh (1853–1890) Dutch post-Impressionist painter (1853-1890)
Quote in a letter of Vincent tot brother Theo, from Arles, 21 Febr. 1888; as quoted in Vincent van Gogh, edited by Alfred H. Barr; Museum of Modern Art, New York, 1935 https://www.moma.org/documents/moma_catalogue_1996_300061887.pdf, (letter 463), p. 28 <br class="br">1880s, 1888
Osama bin Laden (1957–2011) founder of al-Qaeda
As quoted in The Looming Tower, by Wright, p. 187, 8 August 2006.
Wilhelm II, German Emperor (1859–1941) German Emperor and King of Prussia
Georg Alexander von Müller's diary entry (9 September 1918), quoted in Georg Alexander von Müller, The Kaiser and His Court (London: Macdonald, 1961), p. 343
1910s
Nathanael Greene (1742–1786) American general in the American Revolutionary War
Letter to George Washington (August 1778)
Charles Krauthammer (1950–2018) American journalist
Column, February 12, 2010, "Closing the New Frontier" http://www.jewishworldreview.com/cols/krauthammer021210.php3#.U4HLMMJOWUl at jewishworldreview.com. <br class="br">2010s, 2010
Blu (1983) American rapper and music producer
The World Is (Below the Heavens)
Below the Heavens (2007)
Winston S. Churchill (1874–1965) Prime Minister of the United Kingdom
Speech https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1938/feb/22/foreign-affairs#S5CV0332P0_19380222_HOC_332 in the House of Commons (22 February 1938) after the resignation of the Foreign Secretary Anthony Eden <br class="br">The 1930s
James Robert Flynn (1934–2020) New Zealand scholar
not referring to any of the above mentioned persons
Source: Race, IQ, and Jensen (1980), p. 8
Nathanael Greene (1742–1786) American general in the American Revolutionary War
Letter to George Washington (August 1778)
W.E.B. Du Bois (1868–1963) American sociologist, historian, activist and writer
The Niagara Movement, Address to the Country
Charles Krauthammer (1950–2018) American journalist
2000s, 2004, Reagan Was More Than Just An Optimist (2004)
“Retreat Hell! We're just attacking in another direction.”
Oliver P. Smith (1893–1977) United States Marine Corps general
Said during the Korean War, December 1950, U.S. Marine Corps History Division website http://www.tecom.usmc.mil/HD/Frequently_Requested/Quotes.htm.
Hovhannes Bagramyan (1897–1982) Soviet military commander
Quoted in "I. C. Bagramyan: A Photo Album About A Soviet Marshal" - Yerevan - 1987
“I believe, and always have, that America must engage — not retreat — in the world.”
Chuck Hagel (1946) United States Secretary of Defense
Transcript: Hearing of the Senate Armed Services Committee on the Nomination of Chuck Hagel to be Secretary of Defense http://www.justforeignpolicy.org/node/1368, submitted by Robert Naiman on February 1, 2013 at Justforeignpolicy.org, accessed February 10, 2013. <br class="br">2013
Melanie Phillips (1951) British journalist
"How the West was lost" http://www.melaniephillips.com/how-the-west-was-lost (May 11, 2002)
Immortal Technique (1978) American rapper and activist
The Point of No Return
Albums, Revolutionary Vol. 2 (2003)
Max Delbrück (1906–1981) biophysicist
Nobel Prize acceptance speech (1969) http://www.nobelprize.org/nobel_prizes/medicine/laureates/1969/delbruck-lecture.html
John Fowles book The Magus
Source: The Magus (1965), Ch. 52
Hovhannes Bagramyan (1897–1982) Soviet military commander
Quoted in "The System of the International Organizations of the Communist Countries" - Page 36 - by Richard Szawlowski - 1976
Charles Grey, 2nd Earl Grey (1764–1845) Prime Minister of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland
Speech in the House of Commons (12 December 1792), quoted in The Parliamentary History of England, from the Earliest Period to the Year 1803. Vol. XXX (London: 1817), pp. 41-42.
1790s
İsmail Enver (1881–1922) Turkish military officer and a leader of the Young Turk revolution
Quoted in "A Shameful Act: The Armenian Genocide and the Question of Turkish Responsibility" - by Taner Akcam - History - 2007 - Page 115.
Gerd von Rundstedt (1875–1953) German Field Marshal during World War II
Quoted in "Hitler's Generals" - Page 191 - by Correlli Barnett - History - 2003
Nancy A. Moran (1954) American biologist
[A 48-Million-Year-Old Aphid--Host Plant Association and Complex Life Cycle: Biogeographic Evidence, 10.1126/science.245.4914.173, Science, 245, 4914, 173–175, 14 July 1989, 17787877]
Walter Savage Landor (1775–1864) British writer
Gebir, Book I (1798). It is reported that "these lines were specially singled out for admiration by Shelley, Humphrey Davy, Scott, and many remarkable men"; Bartlett's Familiar Quotations, 10th ed. (1919), citing Forster, Life of Landor, vol. i. p. 95.
Stephen Jay Gould book Leonardo's Mountain of Clams and the Diet of Worms
"The Dodo in the Caucus Race", p. 234
Leonardo's Mountain of Clams and the Diet of Worms (1998)
Ahmed Shah Durrani (1722–1772) founder of the Durrani Empire, considered founder of the state of Afghanistan
Jadunath Sarkar, Fall of the Mughal Empire, Volume II, Fourth Edition, New Delhi, 1991, p.210-11
Dafydd ap Gwilym (1320–1380) Welsh poet
Digrif fu, fun, un ennyd
Dwyn dan un bedwlwyn ein byd.
Cydlwynach , difyrrach fu,
Coed olochwyd, cydlechu,
Cydfyhwman marian môr,
Cydaros mewn coed oror,
Cydblannu bedw, gwaith dedwydd,
Cydblethu gweddeiddblu gwŷdd.
Cydadrodd serch â'r ferch fain,
Cydedrych caeau didrain.
"Y Serch Lledrad" (Love Kept Secret), line 23; translation from Dafydd ap Gwilym (ed. and trans. Rachel Bromwich) A Selection of Poems (Harmondsworth, Penguin, [1982] 1985) p. 34.
Neal Stephenson book Seveneves
What if I want to have a lot of little bipolar kids?”
"Cleft"
Seveneves (2015), Part Two
Edgar Rice Burroughs book Tarzan of the Apes
Source: Tarzan of the Apes (1912), Ch. 7 : The Light of Knowledge
Pierre-Auguste Renoir (1841–1919) French painter and sculptor
as cited in Renoir, my Father, Jean Renoir; p. 124; as quoted in The private lives of the Impressionists, Sue Roe, Harpen Collins Publishers, New York 2006, p. 83 + 94
1870's
Jean-François Millet (1814–1875) French painter
Quote from his letter, March 1859; as quoted by Arthur Hoeber in The Barbizon Painters – being the story of the Men of thirty – associate of the National Academy of Design; publishers, Frederick A. Stokes Company, New York 1915, p. 53 <br class="br">his now famous picture 'Death and the Woodcutter' https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/dd/Death-and-the-woodcutter-jean-francois-millet3.jpg, had been rejected at the Salon, and the important and conservative journal 'Gazette des Beaux Arts' was most indignant. The well known Hedouin engraved this work. <br class="br">1851 - 1870
Gene Wolfe (1931–2019) American science fiction and fantasy writer
Volume 2, Ch. 23
Fiction, The Book of the Short Sun (1999–2001)
Robert Rauschenberg (1925–2008) American artist
from Rauschenberg, Barbara Rose, Vintage Books, New York, 1987, p. 86
1980's
Sita Ram Goel (1921–2003) Indian activist
Hindu Society under Siege (1981, revised 1992)
Henry Vaughan (1621–1695) Welsh author, physician and metaphysical poet
"The Night," l. 25.
Silex Scintillans (1655)
Context: Dear Night! this world's defeat;
The stop to busy fools; care's check and curb;
The day of spirits; my soul's calm retreat
Which none disturb!
Christ's progress, and His prayer-time;
The hours to which high Heaven doth chime.
Walt Disney (1901–1966) American film producer and businessman
Deeds Rather Than Words (1963)
Context: To me, today, at age sixty-one, all prayer, by the humble or highly placed, has one thing in common: supplication for strength and inspiration to carry on the best human impulses which should bind us together for a better world. Without such inspiration, we would rapidly deteriorate and finally perish. But in our troubled time, the right of men to think and worship as their conscience dictates is being sorely pressed. We can retain these privileges only by being constantly on guard and fighting off any encroachment on these precepts. To retreat from any of the principles handed down by our forefathers, who shed their blood for the ideals we still embrace, would be a complete victory for those who would destroy liberty and justice for the individual.
Muhammad Ali (1942–2016) African American boxer, philanthropist and activist
Poem composed prior to his match with Sonny Liston, in 1963, as quoted in "Brash Clay waxed poetic in 1963 visit to Nashville" by Bill Traughber in Nashville's The CIty Paper (4 June 2002)
Variant transcription: Who would have thought, when they came to the fight,
that they'd witness a launchin' of a black satellite.
Context: Clay comes out to meet Liston and Liston starts to retreat,
if Liston goes back an inch farther he'll end up in a ringside seat.
Clay swings with his left, Clay swings with his right,
Look at young Cassius carry the fight
Liston keeps backing, but there's not enough room,
It's a matter of time till Clay lowers the boom.
Now Clay lands with a right, what a beautiful swing,
And the punch raises the Bear clean out of the ring.
Liston is still rising and the ref wears a frown,
For he can't start counting till Sonny goes down.
Now Liston is disappearing from view, the crowd is going frantic,
But radar stations have picked him up, somewhere over the Atlantic.
Who would have thought when they came to the fight?
That they'd witness the launching of a human satellite.
Yes the crowd did not dream, when they put up the money,
That they would see a total eclipse of the Sonny.
Jean-Marie Guyau (1854–1888) French writer and philosopher
Sacrifice https://www.marxists.org/archive/guyau/1895/sacrifice.htm, Pages Choisies des Grands Écrivains (1895). <br class="br">Context: We can judge ourselves and our ideal by posing this question: For what idea, for what person would I be ready to risk my life? He who cannot answer such a question has a vulgar and empty heart. He is incapable of feeling or doing anything grand in life, since he is unable to go beyond his individuality. He is impotent and sterile, dragging along his selfish ego like the tortoise its shell. On the contrary, he who has present in his spirit the idea of death for his ideal seeks to maintain this ideal at the height of this possible sacrifice. He draws from this supreme risk a constant tension and an indefatigable energy of the will. The only means of being great in life is having the consciousness that you will not retreat before death.
Benedict Arnold (1741–1801) Continental and later British Army general during the American Revolutionary War
Letter to General Horatio Gates (31 May 1776) published in The Life of Benedict Arnold : His Patriotism and His Treason (1880) by Isaac Newton Arnold, p. 96
Context: Neglected by Congress below; pinched with every want here; distressed with the small-pox; want of Generals and discipline in our Army — which may rather be called a great rabble — our late unhappy retreat from Quebec, and loss of the Cedars; our credit and reputation lost, and great part of the country; and a powerful foreign enemy advancing upon us; are so many difficulties we cannot surmount them. My whole thoughts are now bent on making a safe retreat out of this country; however, I hope we shall not be obliged to leave it until we have had one bout more for the honour of America. I think we can make a stand at Isle-aux-Noix, and keep the Lake this summer from an invasion that way. We have little to fear; but I am heartily chagrined to think we have ldst in one month all the immortal Montgomery was a whole campaign in gaining, together with our credit, and many men and an amazing sum of money. The commissioners this day leave us, as our good fortune has long since; but as Miss, like most other Misses, is fickle, and often changes, I still hope for her favors again; and that we shall have the pleasure of dying or living happy together.
Robert H. Jackson (1892–1954) American judge
Summation for the Prosecution, July 26, 1946
Quotes from the Nuremberg Trials (1945-1946)
The End
Context: After the blast of lightning from the east,
The flourish of loud clouds, the Chariot Throne;
After the drums of time have rolled and ceased,
And by the bronze west long retreat is blown,
Shall Life renew these bodies? Of a truth,
All death will he annul, all tears assuage? —
Or fill these void veins full again with youth,
And wash, with an immortal water, age?
Plotinus (203–270) Neoplatonist philosopher
An Essay on the Beautiful
Context: What measures, then, shall we adopt? What machine employ, or what reason consult by means of which we may contemplate this ineffable beauty; a beauty abiding in the most divine sanctuary without ever proceeding from its sacred retreats lest it should be beheld by the profane and vulgar eye? We must enter deep into ourselves, and, leaving behind the objects of corporeal sight, no longer look back after any of the accustomed spectacles of sense. For, it is necessary that whoever beholds this beauty, should withdraw his view from the fairest corporeal forms; and, convinced that these are nothing more than images, vestiges and shadows of beauty, should eagerly soar to the fair original from which they are derived. For he who rushes to these lower beauties, as if grasping realities, when they are only like beautiful images appearing in water, will, doubtless, like him in the fable, by stretching after the shadow, sink into the lake and disappear. For, by thus embracing and adhering to corporeal forms, he is precipitated, not so much in his body as in his soul, into profound and horrid darkness; and thus blind, like those in the infernal regions, converses only with phantoms, deprived of the perception of what is real and true.
George W. Bush (1946) 43rd President of the United States
2000s, 2006, State of the Union (January 2006)
Context: But our enemies and our friends can be certain. The United States will not retreat from the world, and we will never surrender to evil. America rejects the false comfort of isolationism. We are the nation that saved liberty in Europe, and liberated death camps, and helped raise up democracies, and faced down an evil empire. Once again, we accept the call of history to deliver the oppressed, and move this world toward peace. We remain on the offensive against terror networks. We have killed or captured many of their leaders — and for the others, their day will come.
Margaret Thatcher (1925–2013) British stateswoman and politician
Speech to Conservative Rally at Cheltenham (3 July 1982) http://www.margaretthatcher.org/document/104989, regarding the Falkland Islands War. <br class="br">First term as Prime Minister <br class="br">Context: The battle of the South Atlantic was not won by ignoring the dangers or denying the risks. It was achieved by men and women who had no illusions about the difficulties. We faced them squarely and we were determined to overcome... What has indeed happened is that now once again Britain is not prepared to be pushed around. We have ceased to be a nation in retreat. We have instead a new-found confidence—born in the economic battles at home and tested and found true 8,000 miles away... we rejoice that Britain has re-kindled that spirit which has fired her for generations past and which today has begun to burn as brightly as before. Britain found herself again in the South Atlantic and will not look back from the victory she has won.
Mikhail Gorbachev (1931) General Secretary of the Communist Party of the Soviet Union
"Nature Is My God" - interview with Fred Matser in Resurgence No. 184 (September-October 1997) http://www.resurgence.org/resurgence/184/gorbachev.htm <br class="br">Context: We have retreated from the perennial values. I don't think that we need any new values. The most important thing is to try to revive the universally known values from which we have retreated.<br>As a young man, I really took to heart the Communist ideals. A young soul certainly cannot reject things like justice and equality. These were the goals proclaimed by the Communists. But in reality that terrible Communist experiment brought about repression of human dignity. Violence was used in order to impose that model on society. In the name of Communism we abandoned basic human values. So when I came to power in Russia I started to restore those values; values of "openness" and freedom.
Franklin D. Roosevelt (1882–1945) 32nd President of the United States
1940s, Third Inaugural Address (1941)
Context: In the face of great perils never before encountered, our strong purpose is to protect and to perpetuate the integrity of democracy. For this we muster the spirit of America, and the faith of America. We do not retreat. We are not content to stand still. As Americans, we go forward, in the service of our country, by the will of God.
Sören Kierkegaard (1813–1855) Danish philosopher and theologian, founder of Existentialism
Kierkegaard Journals and Papers 1A, 86 September 29, 1835
1830s, The Journals of Søren Kierkegaard, 1830s
Context: It occurs to me that artists go forward by going backward, something which I have nothing against intrinsically when it is a reproduced retreat — as is the case with the better artists. But it does not seem right that they stop with the historical themes already given and, so to speak, think that only these are suitable for poetic treatment, because these particular themes, which intrinsically are no more poetic than others, are now again animated and inspirited by a great poetic nature. In this case the artists advance by marching on the spot. — Why are modern heroes and the like not just as poetic? Is it because there is so much emphasis on clothing the content in order that the formal aspect can be all the more finished?
Wilfred Owen (1893–1918) English poet and soldier (1893-1918)
Strange Meeting (1918)
Context: "Strange friend," I said, "Here is no cause to mourn."
"None," said the other, "Save the undone years,
The hopelessness. Whatever hope is yours,
Was my life also; I went hunting wild
After the wildest beauty in the world,
Which lies not calm in eyes, or braided hair,
But mocks the steady running of the hour,
And if it grieves, grieves richlier than here.
For by my glee might many men have laughed,
And of my weeping something has been left,
Which must die now. I mean the truth untold,
The pity of war, the pity war distilled.
Now men will go content with what we spoiled.
Or, discontent, boil bloody, and be spilled.
They will be swift with swiftness of the tigress,
None will break ranks, though nations trek from progress.
Courage was mine, and I had mystery;
Wisdom was mine, and I had mastery;
To miss the march of this retreating world
Into vain citadels that are not walled.
Julia Ward Howe (1819–1910) American abolitionist, social activist, and poet
Published version, in the Atlantic Monthly (February 1862)
He has sounded out the trumpet that shall never call retreat,
He has waked the earth's dull sorrow with a high ecstatic beat...
First manuscript version (19 November 1861).
The Battle Hymn of the Republic (1861)
Context: He has sounded forth the trumpet that shall never call retreat;
He is sifting out the hearts of men before His judgment-seat.
Oh! be swift my soul to answer him, be jubilant my feet!
Our God is marching on.
Calvin Coolidge (1872–1933) American politician, 30th president of the United States (in office from 1923 to 1929)
1920s, Freedom and its Obligations (1924)
John Pilger (1939) Australian journalist
Quoted in New Cold War & looming threats, Frontline, India https://frontline.thehindu.com/cover-story/article25661115.ece (21 December 2018)
On being a teenager in “Maurene Goo Dishes on Food Trucks, Frenemies, and The Way You Make Me Feel” https://www.bookish.com/articles/maurene-goo-the-way-you-make-me-feel-interview/ in Bookish (2018 May 23)
Joseph E. Stiglitz (1943) American economist and professor, born 1943.
"The end of neoliberalism and the rebirth of history" https://www.socialeurope.eu/the-end-of-neoliberalism-and-the-rebirth-of-history, Social Europe, November 2019
Mao Zedong (1893–1976) Chairman of the Central Committee of the Communist Party of China
A Single Spark Can Start A Prairie Fire https://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/mao/selected-works/volume-1/mswv1_6.htm (1930) <br class="br">He later wrote the similar quote "When guerrillas engage a stronger enemy, they withdraw when he advances; harass him when he stops; strike him when he is weary; pursue him when he withdraws." On Guerrilla Warfare https://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/mao/works/1937/guerrilla-warfare/ch01.htm (1937), Chapter 1 - "What Is Guerrilla Warfare?"
Patrick Henry (1736–1799) attorney, planter, politician and Founding Father of the United States
Disputed, Give me liberty, or give me death! (1775)
Henry Giroux (1943) American academic
"Higher Education Under Siege: Implications for Public Intellectuals," Thought and Action (Fall 2006), p. 64
Vladimir Lenin (1870–1924) Russian politician, led the October Revolution
"Communism and New Economic Policy",(April 1921)
1920s
Vladimir Lenin (1870–1924) Russian politician, led the October Revolution
"Communism and New Economic Policy",(April 1921)
1920s
Seneca the Younger book Epistulae morales ad Lucilium
Epistulae Morales ad Lucilium (Moral Letters to Lucilius), Letter CXVI: On Real Ethics as Superior to Syllogistic Subtleties